How ingrate thou art

61 Replies to “How ingrate thou art”

1. No takers, I see. Too sensitive for you, ladies? Did I offend your good Christian sensibilities? Good.

2. Religion is impervious to logic.

3. Dude noone wants to comment on a topic which is clearly inflammatory. The US and UK armies have members of various religions. The US is also a secular state – freedom of religion and what, what. UK is Anglican.

   I think you are offsides. Not for writing this piece because any idiot can blog but because it was done in a way that was not your usual semi reflective or “I wanna share some shit” way.

   Secondly you challenge what some peeps find to be the very core of who they are.

   Finally your proffer no alternative.

   Hypocrites in this world are there by the dozen – some priests shag kids, some pentecostals are all about the Benjamins (read God and Sons (Private) Limited), politicians lie, husbands cheat but at the end of the day we chose to be who we are and if peeps can sleep with that at the end of the night and you are not committing a crime then I have no issues with you.

4. @ Joe instead of offending you simply roused sympathy, its like seeing a grown man, using his fork for eating and immediately afterwards using the same fork to wax his ears. What defies logic Mos Native is our gentleman and his fork!

5. Buffdaddy, expressing my opinion is not an exercise in objective commentary, so don’t analyse it as that.

   My main point is all religion is, to me, poison, and for those who claim to practice it properly, they should take a stand in preventing evil being done in their name, or in the name of their particular religion.

   As for you, with the forking analogy, I don’t get it, lol. It’s interesting that in response, you guys don’t comment on my post, but on the way I wrote it.

6. Also, on your point about hypocrites, that was really the main thrust – that religion, all religion, to me has been hijacked and there’s no point in subscribing to something that’s good on face value but warped both in practice and history.

7. I suppose the gentleman and his fork will not get it either. The point i was making is that you are missing the irony in your post. You have every right to raise your concerns with religion, but dont misuse this right…. in the same way the fork is a useful tool on the dinner table and can ably aid your cause. but once you start misusing the fork then you become the fool.

   The same way you get annoyed, is the same way the taliban who has lived in Afghan caves since the beginning of time is annoyed when the west disturb his calm and peace. the difference is you have a large mouth, and he has an AK47.

   ( ps, for fear of being misconstrued, the jibs are made in friendly banter)

8. Tempting, but Im not going to put my boot in your face while you down. The post was a bit below (your) par and I think thats what BD and A-CM are reacting to; Its coz we hold your posts in high regard 🙂

   Enough of that.

   If the main point was that religion is senseless, illogical, evil, useless, a big con, fear-peddling, grand mischief etc; then I agree with you.

   But, if it wasnt religion it would be something else. Meaning, the “evil” of religion comes from its use as a political tool for mass control, mass persuasion, mass identity. When its used to separate “us” from “the other”, as a means towards a political end, thats when shit happens.
   The Jews vs Gentiles, Jews vs Christians, Muslims vs Christians, Christians vs “Pagans”, Catholics vs Protestants, Anglicans vs Catholics, Secular Democracy vs Muslim fundamentalists, Missionaries vs Heathern Natives, …
   That unholy marriage of politics and religion has been the cause of much misery; when religion is used to unite people for political motive as in the crusades. Or used to suppress freedom as in Monarchies who are “chosen by God”.

   Having said that, for political ends, if it wasnt religion, some form of mass persuasion would have been invented anyway…

   On a personal level, my observation shows me that people follow organised religion by force of habit, deeply ingrained fear, ignorance of science, perceived emotional benefit, deference of personal responsibility and societal perception. Quite simply because they do not know any better. ie it is totally unnecessary.

   But if one’s family, mother, father, siblings are devout followers, it will be very difficult for one to accept even sound reason against religion because ultimately the message that filters through is that “you’re all idiots for believing this crap”.

9. A-CM – there is no way to “misuse” a right … if I have a right to my opinion, my opinion stands no matter whether you think it’s right or someone else thinks it’s not. There is no misuse.

   My post may have been below (your) par, but you’re looking it from an analytical point of view – I’m expressing my opinion here, and whether my disdain for all organised religion may not go down well with certain people, or my use of strong language to express my views, is neither here nor there.

   That’s my opinion, and that’s the way it is, like it or loathe it 🙂

10. Now, in response to someone who opted to e-mail me, and ask if I was denying the existence of, as he puts it, “God”.

    Au contraire … I keep an open mind, and if there’s a higher power, and I have reason to believe it, I will believe it. I just don’t acknowledge something I have no experience of.

    If YOU believe in whatever form of higher being, that’s your option. My problem is when your particular religious order tries to force its will on others, either through aggressive “conversion” or brute force.

    That’s when you become, as I put it, evil bastards. And that doesn’t mean everyone of a particular order, just those perpetrating injustice cloaked in the robes of your order, and those who condone or allow such things to be done in the name of their religious order.

    In this, I also include those who believe Israel is the Holy Land, making pilgrimages and buying tchochkes and beads and shit, while ignoring the children dying across the wall.

    Answered, I assume.

11. “A report into clerical child abuse in Dublin released later today will “shock and horrify” the whole of Ireland, a leading figure in the Catholic church has admitted.

    The Dublin Diocese Commission will name up to 15 priests they say were guilty of abusing children in the Irish capital over a 35-year-period.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/21/child-abuse-catholic-church-ireland

12. Me and God had a falling out a decade ago, and we haven’t spoken since.

    JB, I wish I’d been around to watch your six (back you up). If there was one thing that I could burn off the face of the earth, it would be religion. I don’t think I have known anything more fucked up than religion. Yesterday, I was watching a programme of baby pageant queens. It was disturbing stuff. The most disturbing was a woman who got her priest to prey for her kid to win. The kid lost, but that was god’s plan. Imagine God up there in heaven looking down and seeing this 8 year old being primped out and having pornlike pictures being taken of her. You should have seen it, the photos would have given Gary Glitter the mother of all hard ons. Anyway, I feel sorry for ‘God’ sometimes. Imagine what it must be like looking down and seeing all this shit being done in his name. Because he said so. Like a comedien said, people of religion claim that science doesn’t explain everything. Therefore you gotta believe in a God top fill in the blanks. But if science explained everything, it would stop. Science is all about discovery and proof. I love the argument of, there is no proof God doesn’t exist, therefore he must. This notion of wherever there is a gap in our current knowledge, then it must be God is absurd and scary. I might even say I hate it so much, because the worst that has ever happened to Man because of what another man did was because of religion. I find religion to be the most self-serving activity ever. And for that reason, I haven’t come across one that I thought deserved a second looking. Don’t get me wrong, religion has it’s uses, kinda like the blanket that makes you feel sense. For some people, they need for there to be a God to complete them. But for me, I ain’t buying. Plus, God blatantly hates women and gay. That’s a triple no no for a Liberal Feminist Atheist. To get me to believe in God, he’d have to get a sex-change and rewrite the book. Make it less vague and less open to interpretation. It’d also have to adapt to the times, and only he would have the access t changing it. And all his communication would have to be public. None of this talking to people in dreams where no one else can corroborate the story. I like the sound of witnesses. And ones that are impartial. And no secrets about God’s Plan either. Uh uh! Full transparency. And I wouldn’t mind hearing from the man downstairs. What’s his story really?

    Anyone ever notice how very humanlike God sounds? Sometimes sounds like a kid.

    Okay, so you get my point.

    PS: Note I ain’t talking any specific God. Meant it in a generic way.

    PPS: I am so sorry for offending. Didn’t mean to antagonise. It’s just one of those things that I lose sleep over. Forget I said anything.

    But JB, I’m, with you.

13. Yep, sounds like you had a major falling out there, for sure. One thing though, don’t ever apologise to anyone for your opinions and feelings.

    If you offended someone with your opinions, that’s because their own sensibilities can’t reconcile the thought that someone feels so completely different to them. Again, it’s no crime to think a certain way or feel a certain way.

    The thing about free speech is that instead of being offended, people have the chance to DEFEND their points of view, and anyone here is free to do so.

14. The comedian I was talking about (2mins 30secs)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbY7GODI5Dw&NR=1

15. Tara and JB clearly don’t see the ironies in what they have posted. let me debunk their arguments, but let me first recount a story, that touches on what mos Native alludes to.

    as kids we used to mould breast out of sand on the ground. each kid was to protect a pair of breast coz they were their mother’s ( at least represented such) one way of easily picking a fight was to step on another “mother’s breast”. the fights that ensued are legendary. the moral of the story is self-evident.

    to address JB and Tara:
    – religion does not in any way mean a belief in God, you seem to be confusing this. e.g one can make religion out of an individual, money, soccer, cricket. your attack on religion as a faith based practice reveals more your insecurities ( perhaps a big let down in the past)than reasoned attack on fanatics. so the post would have been like- “i dont like religious psychopaths’ of any kind, e.g faith based or sports based”
    – To argue that since you have not experienced something therefore it isnt real, is a rather childish argument. then to argue there is no scientific prove of such, is purely lacking the refinement to critique or maybe its scholastic immaturity. i kindly refer you to Descartes’ meditation and the epistemological treatise on justifying what is real and what isnt.
    – The religious wars we have in the world, are not in the majority based on religion but are a consequence of the biggest zygotes-politicians. It was the politician, especially of british persuasion that created artificial political boundaries with no sensitivity whatsoever to local realities which included religion. that the problem in the middle east, Sudan, Asia etc
    – Faith based beliefs, spirit, conscience are really what makes human beings superior to other animals or plants. think about it. this does not in anyway force me to preach down your throat the virtues of living a mentally, physically and spiritually superior existence to animals
    – I did something, to amuse myself, i re-read your post and everytime you mentioned faith based belief i replaced with soccer, money, drugs, egos, and i simply chuckled…

16. What’s up with you guys sending me e-mails, instead of just commenting? If you don’t have the courage of your convictions, why don’t you use a wild pseudonym leave it anonymous? It’s alright.

    Anyway, if you really believe that this is blasphemy, and indeed it could be called so (by ALL the religions I’ve mentioned) then yes, it’s your right to be offended and respond accordingly.

    My problem is that religious responses tend towards the shrill or fundamentalist, threatening eternal damnation and impending death.

    Thank you. Still, only tyrants and zealots fear freedom of speech.

17. Wow, thank you A-CM for boiling down my arguments so succintly. Yes, it reveals my insecurities … clap clap, congrats. (You full of shit, but we established that months ago)

    Okay, you haven’t actually revealed the “ironies” in what Tara and I have said. If you tried to make your argument in plain and simple terms, you may one day succeed in making a point; rather, start by getting past the Jonathanesque practice of fudging your arguments with big meaningless words – you are the king of obfuscation, and it’s funny.

    Faith wars are not in the majority based on religion? Don’t be silly, even to see the contradiction in this statement.

    Here’s a suggestion – instead of acting like a bloviating mouth-breather with no valid point but likes to write long meaningless treatises to his own ego, come back and make a fucking point. For once.

18. Extract from “What is Man?” – Mark Twain.

    Once upon a time an Infidel was guest in the house of a Christian widow whose little boy was ill and near to death. The Infidel often watched by the bedside and entertained the boy with talk, and he used these opportunities to satisfy a strong longing in his nature–that desire which is in us all to better other people’s condition by having them think as we think. He was successful. But the dying boy, in his last moments, reproached him and said:

    “I BELIEVED, AND WAS HAPPY IN IT; YOU HAVE TAKEN MY BELIEF AWAY, AND MY COMFORT. NOW I HAVE NOTHING LEFT, AND I DIE MISERABLE; FOR THE THINGS WHICH YOU HAVE TOLD ME DO NOT TAKE THE PLACE OF THAT WHICH I HAVE LOST.”

    And the mother, also, reproached the Infidel, and said:

    “MY CHILD IS FOREVER LOST, AND MY HEART IS BROKEN. HOW COULD YOU DO THIS CRUEL THING? WE HAVE DONE YOU NO HARM, BUT ONLY KINDNESS; WE MADE OUR HOUSE YOUR HOME, YOU WERE WELCOME TO ALL WE HAD, AND THIS IS OUR REWARD.”

    The heart of the Infidel was filled with remorse for what he had done, and he said:

    “IT WAS WRONG–I SEE IT NOW; BUT I WAS ONLY TRYING TO DO HIM GOOD. IN MY VIEW HE WAS IN ERROR; IT SEEMED MY DUTY TO TEACH HIM THE TRUTH.”

    Then the mother said:

    “I HAD TAUGHT HIM, ALL HIS LITTLE LIFE, WHAT I BELIEVED TO BE THE TRUTH, AND IN HIS BELIEVING FAITH BOTH OF US WERE HAPPY. NOW HE IS DEAD,–AND LOST; AND I AM MISERABLE. OUR FAITH CAME DOWN TO US THROUGH CENTURIES OF BELIEVING ANCESTORS; WHAT RIGHT HAD YOU, OR ANY ONE, TO DISTURB IT? WHERE WAS YOUR HONOR, WHERE WAS YOUR SHAME?”

    Y.M. He was a miscreant, and deserved death!

    O.M. He thought so himself, and said so.

    Y.M. Ah–you see, HIS CONSCIENCE WAS AWAKENED!

    O.M. Yes, his Self-Disapproval was. It PAINED him to see the mother suffer. He was sorry he had done a thing which brought HIM pain. It did not occur to him to think of the mother when he was misteaching the boy, for he was absorbed in providing PLEASURE for himself, then. Providing it by satisfying what he believed to be a call of duty.

    Y.M. Call it what you please, it is to me a case of AWAKENED CONSCIENCE. That awakened conscience could never get itself into that species of trouble again. A cure like that is a PERMANENT cure.

    O.M. Pardon–I had not finished the story. We are creatures of OUTSIDE INFLUENCES–we originate NOTHING within. Whenever we take a new line of thought and drift into a new line of belief and action, the impulse is ALWAYS suggested from the OUTSIDE. Remorse so preyed upon the Infidel that it dissolved his harshness toward the boy’s religion and made him come to regard it with tolerance, next with kindness, for the boy’s sake and the mother’s. Finally he found himself examining it. From that moment his progress in his new trend was steady and rapid. He became a believing Christian. And now his remorse for having robbed the dying boy of his faith and his salvation was bitterer than ever. It gave him no rest, no peace. He MUST have rest and peace–it is the law of nature. There seemed but one way to get it; he must devote himself to saving imperiled souls. He became a missionary. He landed in a pagan country ill and helpless. A native widow took him into her humble home and nursed him back to convalescence. Then her young boy was taken hopelessly ill, and the grateful missionary helped her tend him. Here was his first opportunity to repair a part of the wrong done to the other boy by doing a precious service for this one by undermining his foolish faith in his false gods. He was successful. But the dying boy in his last moments reproached him and said:

    “I BELIEVED, AND WAS HAPPY IN IT; YOU HAVE TAKEN MY BELIEF AWAY, AND MY COMFORT. NOW I HAVE NOTHING LEFT, AND I DIE MISERABLE; FOR THE THINGS WHICH YOU HAVE TOLD ME DO NOT TAKE THE PLACE OF THAT WHICH I HAVE LOST.”

    And the mother, also, reproached the missionary, and said:

    “MY CHILD IS FOREVER LOST, AND MY HEART IS BROKEN. HOW COULD YOU DO THIS CRUEL THING? WE HAD DONE YOU NO HARM, BUT ONLY KINDNESS; WE MADE OUR HOUSE YOUR HOME, YOU WERE WELCOME TO ALL WE HAD, AND THIS IS OUR REWARD.”

    The heart of the missionary was filled with remorse for what he had done, and he said:

    “IT WAS WRONG–I SEE IT NOW; BUT I WAS ONLY TRYING TO DO HIM GOOD. IN MY VIEW HE WAS IN ERROR; IT SEEMED MY DUTY TO TEACH HIM THE TRUTH.”

    Then the mother said:

    “I HAD TAUGHT HIM, ALL HIS LITTLE LIFE, WHAT I BELIEVED TO BE THE TRUTH, AND IN HIS BELIEVING FAITH BOTH OF US WERE HAPPY. NOW HE IS DEAD–AND LOST; AND I AM MISERABLE. OUR FAITH CAME DOWN TO US THROUGH CENTURIES OF BELIEVING ANCESTORS; WHAT RIGHT HAD YOU, OR ANY ONE, TO DISTURB IT? WHERE WAS YOUR HONOR, WHERE WAS YOUR SHAME?”

    The missionary’s anguish of remorse and sense of treachery were as bitter and persecuting and unappeasable, now, as they had been in the former case. The story is finished. What is your comment?

19. Interesting story. Makes me think of one where the mufti and the rabbi are stuck on a desert island, find a coconut and die of starvation because 1) they won’t share it and 2) they can’t agree who to pray to first.

    Religion is a matter of choice, but becomes evil and tainted when it encroaches on the freedom of others.

20. “…a strong longing in his nature–that desire which is in us all to better other people’s condition by having them think as we think…”

    Gems like this make all my aimless reading worthwhile. If only we were all content to have other people follow their convictions.

21. Amen

22. @Joe black

    can your love for Loserpool not be a religion in itself?

23. ps. i hope that was not too Jonathanesque a question

24. No, Liverpool is not a religion … it’s a cult!

25. Truth be told some of this stuff is too long to read. Limit your posts.

    Anyway I take it that it has been touched on that there is a difference between religion and spirituality.

    I believe in God. I pray. I don’t go to church. I grew up in a congregationalist church, went to Catholic school and have family members who are pentecostal – so have a pretty clear perspective of many things.

    I pity – yes truly absolutely due those that don’t have spirituality in their life. The abscence of that means the presence of other things. I love my booze, my rugby, my fun and my belief system. I don’t push God or Jesus down people’s throats and get squeamish when I see that. I can understand that there are those who see it as their mission to spread the gospel. There are peeps who abuse office everywhere and the church is soft target.

    Finally in my longish post – the world needs more spirituality and less religion.

26. Read it, don’t be lazy. Anyway, yes, spirituality is fine, organised religion, by creating classes and divisions, automatically becomes combative.

    Anyway, whatever. It’s a beautiful day, the sun’s out.

27. JB, I really wish I was privy to what was in those emails. I really do.

28. A cult?! LOL. 🙂

29. I guess by not commenting, they were trying to maintain some sorta anonymity.

    Anyway, yes, Liverpool is a cult 🙂 Wanna join, ManUre scum?

30. can i borrow your own words in defense of those who choose to preach and/or to be religous.

    “If you offended someone with your opinions, that’s because their own sensibilities can’t reconcile the thought that someone feels so completely different to them. Again, it’s no crime to think a certain way or feel a certain way”

31. No. I’m good, with my passive RELIGION that is ManU. 🙂

    My heads spinning now, what will all this using people’s own words against them and all. I guess I get the bottom lines here, we disagree to disagree.

32. I do not believe in supreme beings.

    Before I was 12, I believed everything I was told. I believed that there was a Christian God, Jesus, a Virgin Mary, the nativity, easter etc; but I was also told and believed in Santa, the easter bunny, the tooth fairy, tokoloshi, sandawana and unicorns. So I do not think that my religious belief then, could have been considered credible, without accepting the same for the latter beliefs.

    At 12 I went to a Catholic boarding school and as was mandatory, did the Catholic thing with daily Mass, altar boy service, scripture union, christian life group, baptism, communion and confirmation to boot. I believed that I believed in Jesus. These were my formative years and I was busy absorbing and building my belief systems and character and could not easily discern the wheat from the chaff. Jesuit religiosity was ubiquitious and we looked up to the priests so much I remember going to Silveira House and vowing to become a priest.

    At 15 my inquisitive mind got the best of me. I could not reconcile religion with ’cause and effect’. Simply, religious doctrine did not make sense to me. And the explanations from the people feeding the religion to me were very empty at best and at worst, a reproachful look for even daring to question divinity. The bible was a mass of surreal contradictory fantastic tales. The prayers, rites, creed and hyms, though enchanting did not seem to affect the outcome of events in any direction. Good and bad happened indiscriminately with scant regard to ones religious orientation. I passed exams because I swotted, people died despite my prayers, I scored tries on the First team field without praying for it, I got one girl and lost another without divine intervention.
    Neither prayer nor meditation made my emotional burdens lighter, neither did they console me in grief. I was as ecstatic in and out of religion and likewise sad. I was neither better nor worse with or without religion.

    Point – I came to the conscious, logical, well thought out and rational realisation, at 15, in the bossom of boarding school Catholicism, that religion was rather unnecessary in my life.

    I am now a very spiritual man. But I believe my spirituality is materialistic, and comes from within, not from an external being. I am a mammal and will cease to exist when I die. This universe existed before the first human and shall, in all probability, despite our destructive ways, continue to exist after the last one perishes. It is highly arrogant and extremely vain of human beings to believe we are superior to other creatures and that the universe and all in it was created for our enjoyment.

    PEACE

33. I’m neither religous nor spiritual.

    I am just another human being – another product of evolution. Clearly humans have evolved to a level superior to other creatures. So whilst the universe may not been speicifically created for our enjoyment, we are here now and our superiority enables us to enjoy the universe as best as we can.

34. THANK YOU. As i have always maintained, humans are nothing special, other than for their uncanny ability to devastate their environment for themselves and everything else. I swear, I was at my most stressed when I had a god to worry about. Now, I am foot loose and fancy free.

35. @Anonymous – Im not so sure about the superiority of humans. Physically, we are weak so our superiority can only be cerebral. However, the rate at which we are currently destroying the planet and have massacred each other over the ages seems to counter notions of evolving intelligence. Adverse circumstances show us up for the animals we are.

    What is the difference between a male animal flaunting its brawn to attract females and a man flaunting his X6?
    A female ostrich facing a pack of hunting dogs to save its chicks and a MILF giving it up to ensure her son gets into a cushy job?
    Ask any timer who is reclining in old age and they will tell you after the whole song and dance of life, we are just base creatures.

    Maybe eventually, millenia from now, humans will finally ” get it” and just live – turn your mind around – maybe its the “dumb” animals that got it a long time ago.

36. imagine that, Joe belongs to a cult but spews spurious attacks on faith based believers who at least believe in something not given to human abilities and limitation.

    again let me reiterate; spirituality, conscience and faith truly separates us from animals and give us sophistication as humans. That you choose not to stimulate this part of you is rather disappointing- for a man given to living life fully! at least Mos Native believes in spirituality and will explore this side of him.

    But he makes a cardinal mistake most people make, that all answers in this world are found in logic. Logic if anything is a habit, with practise it gets better but it will never be able to make you see another realm/paradigm that is inherent in human beings or the universe.

    For the record if ever there was a Man utd hater club then i would be the captain hater.

37. Oh you misguided fool … you think this a spurious attack on faith based believers? Don’t be stupid, again… sigh.

    Lemme start again.

    If you try and impose your will, your faith or your ideology on others who think or feel different, and if you judge people not on who they are or what they do, but on what god they pray to, then you are, in my opinion …

    … a fucking idiot. That’s my point. ANd the fact that you haven’t seen that point, A-C M, leads me to lump you with the afore-mentioned fucking idiots.

    As for a belief system, I’m a follower of the S.H. Doctrine ™.

    Shit happens.

38. True, logic has its limitations and to follow logic BLINDLY is just as myopic as to ignore it totally.

    I have to argue though, and I stand corrected, that while logic may be enhanced with practice, I believe it to be inherent in some, or, at least, some of us are more predisposed to it than others.

39. The whole point of religion is simple, to instil fear and also to instil order. Imagine everyone is allowed to be a free soul and think as they please, question certain things, then we gonna have chaos. So for the few that have liberated themselves and have questioned the very things religion doesn’t allow well done. To the rest i say stick to it otherwise u goin to hell.

40. Oh yes, not all answers in this world are found in logic. Some are found in ancient books. And tree leaves. And incense. Hey, chicken droppings tell a few tales. Fuck, marijuana can help you find the truth. Et cetera et cetera ad infinitum.

41. @JB like i said before the difference between yourself and the taliban is that you have a big mouth and he has an AK47.

    I ask, did the guy who tried to persuade you on following a certain faith force you, did he impose himself on you, were you violated? was there anything wrong with your girl friend asking you to share her beliefs? if your own ignominy evades your sensibilities then you are simply handicapped and there is nothing one can do to rescue you from your foolish stupor. Alas we shall pray….

    @ Mos native, a pre-disposition is purely a preference. One could say JB is predisposed to foolishness, i say he prefers to be foolish……

42. Again, Jonathanesque. Anyway, I’m tired.

    Mukai, as for religion being a tool for social order, I agree. There’s also the other side, the docile, well-behaved type of zealot.

    There is something to be said for piety, long as it’s personal and neither judgmental nor offensive.

43. The observation that a religious person is happier than a non-religious person is no more to the point than that a drunk person is happier than a sober person.

    GB Shaw

44. Hahahahahaha

45. @ Mos native

    We will not, therefore, perhaps reason illegitimately if we conclude from this that Physics, Astronomy, Medicine, and all the other sciences that have for their end the consideration of composite objects, are indeed of a doubtful character; but that Arithmetic, Geometry, and the other sciences of the same class, which regard merely the simplest and most general objects, and scarcely inquire whether or not these are really existent, contain somewhat that is certain and indubitable: for whether I am awake or dreaming, it remains true that two and three make five, and that a square has but four sides; nor does it seem possible that truths so apparent can ever fall under a suspicion of falsity [or incertitude].

    Nevertheless, the belief that there is a God who is all powerful, and who created me, such as I am, has, for a long time, obtained steady possession of my mind. How, then, do I know that he has not arranged that there should be neither earth, nor sky, nor any extended thing, nor figure, nor magnitude, nor place, providing at the same time, however, for [the rise in me of the perceptions of all these objects, and] the persuasion that these do not exist otherwise than as I perceive them ? And further, as I sometimes think that others are in error respecting matters of which they believe themselves to possess a perfect knowledge, how do I know that I am not also deceived each time I add together two and three, or number the sides of a square, or form some judgment still more simple, if more simple indeed can be imagined? But perhaps Deity has not been willing that I should be thus deceived, for he is said to be supremely good. If, however, it were repugnant to the goodness of Deity to have created me subject to constant deception, it would seem likewise to be contrary to his goodness to allow me to be occasionally deceived; and yet it is clear that this is permitted.

    By Descartes ( 1st meditation)

46. Okay, we need to put this to bed, before our two resident scholars go on trading quotes!

47. For the record, am loving Mukai. JB and MN too. ACM? Not so much. His posts are too long and have expressions that require a fuelled brain to comprehend, and I haven’t had my coffee yet. Anon, not sure. 🙂

    I think the heathens win this battle.

48. “The Christian right is making a fresh push to force religion onto the school curriculum in Texas with the state’s education board about to consider recommendations that children be taught that there would be no United States if it had not been for God.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/22/christianity-religion-texas-history-education

49. @JB – ok, no more quotes!

    @Tara – Im loving everyone except the cowards who PMd instead of posting their comments 🙁

    Oh, and the reason philosophical texts seem ‘hard’ to understand has more to do with the translators than your intellect. Most of these were originally written in French, German, Latin, Greek, Chinese etc and the learned professors who honour us with translations fail to do so in a manner that retains the original meaning and effect in contemporary english grammar and vocabulary.

    @A-CM – rather unnecessarily longwinded but briefly, for those not inclined to waste time waddling through descartes waffling, he says;

    1. If you can ‘believe’ in abstract scientific concepts, then why not in an abstract God?
    2. God exists, nothing else does. God merely enables you to ‘perceive’ what we refer to as the world and in his goodness, allows you the audacity to question His existence.

    In response;
    1. Science does not preach belief in anything. There are numerous hypotheses for every single scientific concept out there. What prevails is the hypothesis that most consistently passes the scientific evaluation – IN LIEU OF A BETTER THEORY.
    There is a scientific method of observation, hypothesis, experimentation, results, deduction and then conclusion. If you test ANY theory it should give consistent results. Guaranteed, there will be assumptions and limitations but with these considered, your hypothesis should hold ‘true’. The result should be PROOF of your hypothesis. PROOF allows you to plug in your radio and know that it will play. Noone KNOWS why, but the physics theory behind it allows you to reasonably predict the outcome.

    Noone KNOWS why electricity works, but our models so far are ‘true’ enough to allow you to use it. I can trust that abstract chemistry, mathematics and physics will guarantee that 99.9999% of the time if I turn my car ignition, the engine will run. Can your put the same probability on the outcome of a request to the abstract deity?

    Religion fails the scientific method terribly as it ignores observation, goes from hypothesis (god theory), bypasses the intermediate steps and suddenly ends up with a conclusion (God Exists!).

    No dude, belief in God is SO not in the same realm as scientific study.

    Descartes 0 – Mos Native 1

    2. I fail to understand what that means, or why it was written – and still read. That argument is similar to what Thomas Aquinas (I think) called the argument by ontology ie God exists because the concept of there being one such God entered your mind. ie2 If there wasnt a God, then there wouldnt be an issue of his existence or non-existence.

    Bullshit.

    Richard Dawkins rubbishes this silly argument by his “Invisible Pink Teapot Orbiting The Moon Theory”. By the same argument, if I believe that such a teapot exists then merely by my conception of it, it must exist – no proof needed. If I impart omnipotency, omnipresence, goodwill and all sorts of powers to it, then As I conceive and perceive them in my mind, so they are. WTF???

    Descartes 0 – Mos Native 2

    Point – Just as a song is not great just because it is sung by a celebrity, a piece of writing is not great merely because a famous person wrote it.

50. Oh yes, I’d forgetten about the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

    If I wasn’t a spiritual anomaly, I’d definitely be a Pastafarian!

51. Oh yes, thnks JB, writing from memory;

    In correctum – “Invisible Pink Teapot Orbiting The Moon Theory” = Russell’s teapot + Invisible Pink Unicorn

52. I could be wrong and after 50 odd comments with intellectual points my opinion/comment might sound really simple but anyway here I go adding my 2 kwacha.

    I took your post not as a post against religion in particular I took it as a post against fundamentalism in all forms. christian, islamic, jewish etc etc I also read it to see that you didnt appreciate the hypocrisy of those who are religious. Im catholic..I believe in God and I believe in contraception and abortion…HYPOCRITE I AM! There is so much sinning and hypocrisy in religion that people waste so much of their time trying to out do each other on who is purer than the other. Why bother? Admit you are a sinner/hypocrite and let the big man sort it out at the end.

    My attitude to religion has always been let the mere mortals fight it out amongst themselves because whatever or whoever you believe in is going to sort it out so what makes you judge and jury on earth?

    Thats my opinion. It might even be a little confusing but whatever.

53. Actually, it’s great to have someone get back to the actual post, and yeah, you’ve got it down exactly.

    But when you say, let mere mortals fight it out amongst themselves, judgement will come … well, what are the consequences of letting men “fight it out”.

    Isn’t that the problem in the first case, the reason for all this strife?

54. men will always have something to fight about. religion is just a convenient excuse

55. Too true.

56. I must say Mos native you have the ability to seek the truth and show great promise, unfortunately you are quick to ejaculate. ( even comparing yourself to one of the greatest thinkers ever!)
    1:If you can ‘believe’ in abstract scientific concepts, then why not in an abstract God?- this you somewhat got correct but you need to think deeper about it,

    for simplicity and brevity, here is a translation that best suits other readers: (caveat- one still needs to read the full meditations to understand the deductions)

    I: Many of the things I used to be certain of, I now know to be nonsense. To find some firm foundation for science, I must try to establish what is absolutely true. So, I’ll imagine that some evil genie is deceiving me about absolutely everything.

    II: I can’t be sure of the things I know, but I can be sure that I know things. I think therefore I am.”Cogito, ergo sum”

    III: All ideas have a cause. The cause must either be inside me, or something else. Infinity and perfection are not within me, so the idea of an infinite and perfect God must have come from something outside me, so God must exist.

    IV: A perfect God would not cause the imperfection of deceit, so He is not deceiving me about the things of which I have clear and certain knowledge.

    V: I am certain that I know material objects, inasmuch as I can define them by mathematics. This knowledge doesn’t make things exist, but my knowledge of God makes me certain that they are something.

    VI: I imagine that I have a body and that my knowledge comes from my senses. Using several senses together I can determine what is true. But we don’t always have time for this, so we often make mistakes.

57. Yeah, but I guess what grates on me is the use of religion to justify the violence which non believers often get stuck in the middle of. All that contradiction, mainly GOD IS LOVE. If he so loving, then WTF? The hell kinda love has little kids blow to bits just for being at the wrong place at the wrong time. I don’t do that when I love someone. If the answer is ‘one should not humanise God because he transcends that’, then why does he have to test your faith. Why’s he gotta make sure you love him. Why does he need proof. Shouldn’t he have faith in his people’s love for him. It just doesn’t make any sense.Wouldn’t a loving God overlook his people’s faults because he simply loves them so much and as a superior being, he can simply do it?

    JB, another post fast. Otherwise this will go on and on and on, ad infinitum.

58. @ ACM – do you have any opinions or ideas of your own?

59. @ Anonymous: the anti-capitalist mantra is my biggest idea ever- my passion in this idea, some may say is religious 🙂

60. Oh snap!

61. Eish, ejaculation! Im outta here 🙁